Curse

Targren · Jul 07, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

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Originally Posted by Tyla

The only things that can touch you are untargetted AoE skills, touch skills, enviromental effects, regular skills, a couple of tidbit skills (think Illusionary Weaponry) and signets.

Oh, is that all? And here I was thinking there were actually things to WORRY about while permaforming! All that stress for nothing!

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And it's maintainable aswell as not having an effect on mobility. Overstating? Are you kidding me?

The maintainability isn't in question. The usefulness is. In most of the game, SF is useless without a team backing you up, be it because of touchers, untargeted/pbAoE skills, overhealing your damage, environmental effects, signets,etc... The big QQ is UWSC. So fine, do what someone else suggested. Change nightmares Rend Enchantment to the Signet of Disenchantment. UWSC pwned. SF not further damaged.

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Perfect run and perfect spawns. Now, imagine that with the current build.

If by "the current build" you mean the UWSC team, that IS what I was talking about. A very bad mountains spawn can add 10-15 minutes if not cause an outright fail.

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But the times that people are getting are absurd. 45 minutes back then, with a really skilled team? Compared to now? Sometimes more than half is a hell of a lot of difference.

In this case, it's a difference of about 20 minutes. Not that much.

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Difficulty is subjective, some people may have a natural talent for it.
Skill levels will always alter the difficulty of something in that person's eyes.
Practice will increase skill levels, but at times, some things are just unsurpassable.

But you won't surpass anything without practice. I'm still not sure the point you're trying to make here, unless it's just a general philosophical observation. MY point in saying the run is hard is that the constant QQ that any drooling moron can throw on the build and go clear UW in 15 minutes is ridiculous.

glacialphoenix · Jul 07, 2009, 08:48 PM // 20:48

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Pls...
You either don't play the game or play with flawless people

Which is exactly why people play with HB - it's (relatively)foolproof, everyone's comfortable with it, etc. even though people shouldn't be balling when they know an AoE attack's coming. Giant fireball thrown at one paper armour caster in HM and he could very well be dead without prot - no amount of healing will save the guy from a one-hit KO. Nobody's flawless - and you expect your imperfect groups to know things like 'stay back, don't ball, especially if you have crap hp?'

Of course, the foolproof issue - that's generally an issue with taking a PUG. If you're playing with friends/guildies you trust, I don't see what's stopping you from using other skills, since they're presumably better players than your average PUG. It's not like you have to HB/UA/permasin/600/smite/whatever all the time, especially if you've invested a lot of plat into getting that character a nice set of skills. (If you made the character just for farming, that's a different matter altogether, but.)

Tyla · Jul 07, 2009, 08:58 PM // 20:58

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Originally Posted by Targren

Oh, is that all? And here I was thinking there were actually things to WORRY about while permaforming! All that stress for nothing!

Oh yeah, and the best part is, you can easily cope with it!

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The maintainability isn't in question. The usefulness is.

Maintainability is part of its usefulness. If you can maintain borderline invincibility and that isn't part of the usefulness, then f*ck me sideways.

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In most of the game, SF is useless without a team backing you up, be it because of touchers, untargeted/pbAoE skills, overhealing your damage, environmental effects, signets,etc... The big QQ is UWSC. So fine, do what someone else suggested. Change nightmares Rend Enchantment to the Signet of Disenchantment. UWSC pwned. SF not further damaged.

SF is useless without a team backing you up in most of the game? Are you kidding me?

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If by "the current build" you mean the UWSC team, that IS what I was talking about. A very bad mountains spawn can add 10-15 minutes if not cause an outright fail.

The only mountain spawn that should cause any trouble is when there is a complete block on an area and you're thinking "yeah I can get past that". That is, unless something changed.

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In this case, it's a difference of about 20 minutes. Not that much.

Your conception of a time difference is quite a lot compared to mine then.

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But you won't surpass anything without practice. I'm still not sure the point you're trying to make here, unless it's just a general philosophical observation. MY point in saying the run is hard is that the constant QQ that any drooling moron can throw on the build and go clear UW in 15 minutes is ridiculous.

15 minutes? After plenty of runs, knowing your shit, you'll eventually begin to be getting times like that. 20-25 minutes with a team that is pretty new at it.

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 09:35 PM // 21:35

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Originally Posted by Targren

As for tanking an infinite amount of foes in almost any area on your own, that's bollocks. Do it in the Jade sea. Oh, wait, you can't. Do it anywhere where the baddies use signets or touch skills (there are a lot of them, they just generally go unnoticed). You can't. Do it in Sanctum Cay. You can't. Hell, you can't even do it in old ascalon, the most noobish area of the game.

Oh damn obviously you've got me there... is this the sort of crap you think makes a strong arguement? Wtf would i want to Perma in the Jade Sea or Old Ascalon anyway? Big whoop, there are SOME mobs and SOME areas the Perma isn't ideal for, or at least can't do it alone. Doesn't change the fact it can tank almost an infinite number of foes.

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And even if you could, what good is standing there tanking if you can't kill them on your own? Plenty of places where that's the case too, so you need a team. Yep, farmers occasionally team up.

Yup, thats why the 7 Perma's used in a UWSC just sit there until that 1 Necro kills things for them... oh wait.

I really can't be bothered with the rest of it because you clearly have no idea wtf your on about. SF/Permasins not overpowered? Yeah and Arnold Schwarzeneggar can act.

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Playing Ranger + going for Legendary skill hunter: Just shy of 300k just for capsigs

- all the loot you get on the way to some of these foes, some of them are quite far into zones, Prophecies ones might take multiple attempts.

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Playing Ranger + Monk + Assassin + Mesmer + Necro + Warrior + Paragon + Dervish + Ritualist + Elementalist : quite expensive.

Wow seriously? You're like... the only person to ever play more than 1 character /sarcasm

Sure you aren't doing somet wrong? Unless you're buying elite armours and kitting out far more heroes than you need to you should be making money from characters, not losing it. At least over short periods.

Ashantara · Jul 07, 2009, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Personally, I think the game is broken because of some nutheads telling you stuff like:

"Wow, you have serious energy problems!"
"If you can't manage your energy, you're a fail."

...after you've just used Rebirth which - as everyone knows (or at least you assume everyone should) - sets your energy to zero. Instead of waiting for you to regenerate (since no one wanted to take along Blood Ritual), they instantly charge into the next group and wonder why they die again. Oh yeah, and of course no one cares to destroy the Quickening Zephyr, either, no matter how often you call it.

But hey, you're the Monk, right? So it is ALWAYS your fault. *lol* Who needs Aegis, Protective Spirit or the Battle Standard of courage anyway, right?

Seriously, I'm asking you: who's the n00b?

No wonder I rather play with NPCs. At least, they treat you better and don't flame you for trying to do your job.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

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Originally Posted by Ashantara

...after you've just used Rebirth which

You went wrong here. If people are really that unreliable to you, then a different resurrection skill or another protective skill would be better.

credit · Jul 07, 2009, 09:58 PM // 21:58

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

If you think everyone can hold the agro and scatter everytime when the spikes come... then you must be living in a different world.

If you think you can outheal HM with HB and no prots... then you must be living in a different world.

Ashantara · Jul 07, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

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Originally Posted by Tyla

You went wrong here. If people are really that unreliable to you, then a different resurrection skill or another protective skill would be better.

Usually, I'd agree.

But for Gate of Pain, that's an important skill, since there is always the chance for you to have to retreat and rez your team mates from afar (you might recall that the second Emissary is located behind a bunch of enemy groups which - if pulled incorrectly - can wipe out half of your party in no time). And as a Monk you really can't rez in the middle of battle in HM.

Anyway.

Oh yeah, and also quite amusing to watch them stubbornly stand in a Meteor Shower and the likes instead of stepping out of it. Because, hey, there are Monks to prevent you from dying, right? - And then they wonder why you keep running out of energy at some point.

The same geniuses insisted on having you equip the Lightbringer Signet (instead of having someone else bring BR along or let you equip the Glyph of Lesser Energy) although everyone knows that only works in closer range... and as a Monk you usually don't run into the group of enemies but remain in the backline (if you're smart).

Such "pro" r0xx0r 1337 players!

Kendel · Jul 07, 2009, 10:07 PM // 22:07

That'll teach you to pug ><

Similar happened when i was monking GOLEM. Our other monk decided to piss off and go afk as we started and we hasn't noticed till we began the attack. So there i am protting 1 side... only to have an ele continue to spam through Soul Leech (my remove caught another hex) and FINALLY decides to stop when he's on about 10% health. Then of course he does it again... and again... and again on every single wave with a Destroyer of Hope.

Targren · Jul 08, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

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Maintainability is part of its usefulness. If you can maintain borderline invincibility and that isn't part of the usefulness, then f*ck me sideways.

Absolutely. Without maintainability, it's COMPLETELY useless because of its maluses. But maintainability alone doesn't lead to accomplishment.

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SF is useless without a team backing you up in most of the game? Are you kidding me?

If standing at a stalemate until the servers go dark is useful....

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The only mountain spawn that should cause any trouble is when there is a complete block on an area and you're thinking "yeah I can get past that". That is, unless something changed.

Six behemoths all on top of each other at the top in the lower corner, and two immediately below, within range of each others' healing springs.

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Your conception of a time difference is quite a lot compared to mine then.

Well, you can work in percentages (50%) or in absolute times (20 minutes). You said that "half the time can be a lot" but it's not, its only 20 minutes.

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15 minutes? After plenty of runs, knowing your shit, you'll eventually begin to be getting times like that.

Yes. With lots and lots of practice.

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20-25 minutes with a team that is pretty new at it.

You must have a generous definition of pretty new. Most teams that are new at it are going to fail it more than they succeed.

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Oh damn obviously you've got me there... is this the sort of crap you think makes a strong arguement? Wtf would i want to Perma in the Jade Sea or Old Ascalon anyway?
Big whoop, there are SOME mobs and SOME areas the Perma isn't ideal for, or at least can't do it alone. Doesn't change the fact it can tank almost an infinite number of foes.

You said:

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but being able to tank an infinite amount of foes in almost any area of the game on your own is just ridiculous

And it is ridiculous, as is your claim that it's actually the case. What I offered are called "counter examples" and are used to make clear that you are using hyperbole to try and validate your position.

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Yup, thats why the 7 Perma's used in a UWSC just sit there until that 1 Necro kills things for them... oh wait.

And when you have nothing left, you go back to UWSC again. We've been over this ground.

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I really can't be bothered with the rest of it because you clearly have no idea wtf your on about. SF/Permasins not overpowered? Yeah and Arnold Schwarzeneggar can act.

Ad hominem. Nothing offered worth considering.

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- all the loot you get on the way to some of these foes, some of them are quite far into zones, Prophecies ones might take multiple attempts.

Does not generally equal up to the cost of even a single cap signet.

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Wow seriously? You're like... the only person to ever play more than 1 character /sarcasm

I never claimed I was. Anyone who has will tell you it's expensive.

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Sure you aren't doing somet wrong? Unless you're buying elite armours and kitting out far more heroes than you need to you should be making money from characters, not losing it. At least over short periods.

Nope. I'm playing the game as I want to play it. I like good looking armor (whether elite or otherwise) so buying it is not "something wrong."

There are valid uses for money besides powertrading BS. If you can't get that through your skull, then that's sad.

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

And it is ridiculous, as is your claim that it's actually the case. What I offered are called "counter examples" and are used to make clear that you are using hyperbole to try and validate your position.

Yes because out of all the explorables in the game you picked ones that offer absolutely nothing to a Perma. Jade Sea? Who gives a crap. Expunge Enchantments screws over the Perma, Dark Apostasy screws over the 600. The only thing there worth 'farming' would be The Deep but frankly that place is so retarded i don't really include it as part of the game. Urgoz on the other hand, speed runners use Perma's for that. More importantly, they use it to pull mobs out of the way so they can run past because no other class can do it with such ease.
DoA? Stygian Veil, they use Glyph to stop the Choking Gas. Symbiosis/Vital to boost hp. The other few skills that get by it are reduced using Barrier and some of the ele defence skills turning it into a super tank. 99% of the game is nullified, the other 1% can be built around with ease.

Just out of interest... wtf is in Old Ascalon that can stop a Permasin? Gargoyles, Devourers, Grawl and Charr? Since when?

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And when you have nothing left, you go back to UWSC again. We've been over this ground.

And we'll continue to do so until you stop being an ignorant tool by just dismissing everything about Perma because it can't do 'absolutely everything'. UWSC is its best example. Lone assassins solo'ing the majority of the quests in an endgame area in under 20 minutes? Clearly you just want to keep farming it or you have no concept of balance.

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Ad hominem. Nothing offered worth considering.

I could apply this to your entire post. 'SF isn't overpowered because i said so' is the jist of what you've said. I'm not really sure you can call 'well it can't do everything' as a reason because someone else already pointed out that statement was clueless.

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Does not generally equal up to the cost of even a single cap signet.

Nope, quite sure it takes the edge off it though. Those caps halfway up Snake Dance? How about Maw the Mountainheart? All those caps in the Mineral Springs? How about Perdition Rock? Abaddons Mouth bonus area? Depths of Madness? Etc, etc. Tyria is notorious for bosses not spawning. It took me 2-3 hours to cap Ether Prodigy because going to the deeper spawns before you could flag heroes was suicide.

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I never claimed I was.

Sorry but why did you feel the need to respond to a /sarcasm tag like i was being deadly serious?

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Anyone who has will tell you it's expensive.

Believe it or not i do play this game and i have 1 of each profession too. My Ranger is a GWAMM and all professions have at least all non-elites of their profession. Pretty sure theres alot of unnecessary expense there.

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Nope. I'm playing the game as I want to play it. I like good looking armor (whether elite or otherwise) so buying it is not "something wrong."

It helps if you consider what i wrote as a whole instead of ignoring the parts that quite clearly answer what you just replied with. Theres a reason these things are called gold sinks you know. Elite armour is fair enough, if you like the look of it. But titles? Insisting overpowered farming builds are 'balanced' just because you want easy money for your titles is not a good reason.

Nay of the Ether · Jul 08, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Just a little sidenote, you don't have to be a rabid farming machine to get bored with this game. I'm not and I am getting increasingly tired of it all. And honestly, its the attitude of people. Its going the way of world of suckcraft and I'm not going down that road of horror again. I'm actually having more fun these days calling up an old friend, dusting off my dungeon siege 2, and crawling entertaining dungeons and enjoying archaic yet clever graphics from a time now forgotten. I can only hope that the fabled GW2 will breathe life back into this doomed franchise.

MissyX · Jul 08, 2009, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Tbh all I read is more QQ about SF from people that arent playing anymore, are more pvp orinated or those that moan about anything that others find fun.

ToA is one of the most active outposts, if alot of those people actually took time out from playing to come here and read/post these threads would have a different slant on them.

So I ask why is it that you want SF nerfed? The game is instanced so their playstyle doesnt affect your gaming.... Or maybe because the Ecto you horded isnt worth as much as it once was?... Or maybe your super rare weapon isnt as rare as you want it to be... Or that people are wearing your super expensive armour by the 100's.

There are Guilds out there that wont use these builds.. want to play balanced as you call it.. there are also alot more people that dont want to waste 2+hrs doing something. We all play different, we all enjoy doing different things, you dont like SF then dont use it, but ToA says that alot more people actually are having fun.

Oh and when your done QQ about SF then once again you can move onto how titles are useless and there is just TOO much grind in this game :P

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 08, 2009, 08:04 AM // 08:04

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Only if you spent those 3 years playing with H/H (in which case, why weren't you Smiting), otherwise you've been playing with morons. There is no excuse for more than 1 person getting hit by a Scythe attack, its range is tiny and you can see the foe coming a mile away and spread out. If faced with a Terrorweb Dryder you make an effort to NOT stand 2 inches from an ally. This isn't rocket science. If you think Heal Party will save you when 2 Spark of the Titans land a Rodgorts Invocation you're delusional, and if your allies also seem to think that too its about time they learnt the truth or keep dieing.

I'll play with whoever I want
Besides who gave you the right to call other people morons only because they are hit by chilling victory/fireball/ice spikes... you name it
As for the Sparks... uum... are you taking a piss? Remind me if 90% of the game is covered with them? Well I don't think it is. I said HB does the job for most of the time... AND IT DOES. Besides have you heard of the new fantastic skill for Hell's? It's called... Breath of Great Dwarf. And you know what? It's not monk-exclusive! And you can even echo it... omg!!! But seriously.. stop playing stupid, please
HB+HP perfectly counters random spike on your party. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by credit

If you think you can outheal HM with HB and no prots... then you must be living in a different world.

Did I say "Don't bring PS"? Did I? Oh did I?

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

I'll play with whoever I want
Besides who gave you the right to call other people morons only because they are hit by chilling victory/fireball/ice spikes... you name it

Oh your trying to tell me that decent players would frequently ball up against small AoEs?

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As for the Sparks... uum... are you taking a piss? Remind me if 90% of the game is covered with them? Well I don't think it is. I said HB does the job for most of the time... AND IT DOES. Besides have you heard of the new fantastic skill for Hell's? It's called... Breath of Great Dwarf. And you know what? It's not monk-exclusive! And you can even echo it... omg!!! But seriously.. stop playing stupid, please
HB+HP perfectly counters random spike on your party. Simple as that.

Oh god you are serious aren't you... Sparks, well simply put i was just choosing a foe with a large AoE spell, Sparks are notorius for being put before narrow bridges causing Rodgorts to wipe out your party. Thought i'd quickly go check what damage they cause on HM. Mind Burn = 126x2, Rodgorts = 261. Thats to a 60AL caster. How bad are you at monk if you think any amount of healing can safely deal with multiple Rodgorts Invocations or similar large AoE spells? Prot Spirit will stop 1 person getting spiked, i don't really care if you bring it or not, it won't stop you wiping if the entire team is balled up. Breath of the Great Dwarf wouldn't even take the edge off a spike that hard. And echo it? Learn to play monk and do your job or get teammates that aren't stupid enough to ball up. If you need people to carry echo Breath there is something very wrong with your strategy.

Not getting hit by AoE in the first place beats attempting to power heal through it. I've seen crappy monks who seem to think like you and they spam Heal Party with HB thinking that a ~120 point heal is a substitute for people not spreading out. They tend to run out of energy and fail quickly.

Avarre · Jul 08, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

We've already established the basis of the argument was that HB compensates for drastically poor prot/positioning.

I don't think anything more needs to be said.

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Originally Posted by MissyX

you dont like SF then dont use it

I swear to anything you call dear in this world if you post something that base against I will ban you.

It's long since been covered that such an argument has no basis when discussing design direction and purpose.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 08, 2009, 02:55 PM // 14:55

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Oh your trying to tell me that decent players would frequently ball up against small AoEs?

Did I really say frequently?
Random spike can happen to anyone. Period.

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Oh god you are serious aren't you... Sparks, well simply put i was just choosing a foe with a large AoE spell, Sparks are notorius for being put before narrow bridges causing Rodgorts to wipe out your party. Thought i'd quickly go check what damage they cause on HM. Mind Burn = 126x2, Rodgorts = 261. Thats to a 60AL caster. How bad are you at monk if you think any amount of healing can safely deal with multiple Rodgorts Invocations or similar large AoE spells? Prot Spirit will stop 1 person getting spiked, i don't really care if you bring it or not, it won't stop you wiping if the entire team is balled up. Breath of the Great Dwarf wouldn't even take the edge off a spike that hard. And echo it? Learn to play monk and do your job or get teammates that aren't stupid enough to ball up. If you need people to carry echo Breath there is something very wrong with your strategy.

Not getting hit by AoE in the first place beats attempting to power heal through it. I've seen crappy monks who seem to think like you and they spam Heal Party with HB thinking that a ~120 point heal is a substitute for people not spreading out. They tend to run out of energy and fail quickly.

Blah blah... some numbers... blah... some more numbers... more blah blah... skill names... another blah blah...

Hey buddy... who told you I'm spamming HB+HP? Who told you I have HB on the skillbar? Who told you I have energy managament problems? Hmmm?
Only because I explained the OP why monks are using that combo doesn't mean I have it, does it?
Please give up on commenting my gaming strategy. And who are you to teach other people how to play? If someone wants to echo mending or rebirth that's his own business... for as long his/her set up works.

/edit
Oh yea... as for my "gaming strategy" -> me and 1 mesmer handled half of the Hells mission when others ragequit. Single monked last mission in NF with masters
But WTH would I know about monking. I'm sitting on guru half day trolling

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

Did I really say frequently?
Random spike can happen to anyone. Period.

So try saying that. You make it sound like its a common occurance.

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Hey buddy... who told you I'm spamming HB+HP? Who told you I have HB on the skillbar? Who told you I have energy managament problems? Hmmm?
Only because I explained the OP why monks are using that combo doesn't mean I have it, does it?
Please give up on commenting my gaming strategy. And who are you to teach other people how to play? If someone wants to echo mending or rebirth that's his own business... for as long his/her set up works.

How about you try giving off that impression then. From everything you've said you sound like a noob Monk who thinks HB+HP is the start and finish of PvE Monking. Considering i've played with Monks like that, some from my own alliance who should know better by now, i think its a fairly safe assumption to make given what you've been saying. Nice to know you ignore the facts in my post though, shows real strength of character.

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/edit
Oh yea... as for my "gaming strategy" -> me and 1 mesmer handled half of the Hells mission when others ragequit. Single monked last mission in NF with masters
But WTH would I know about monking. I'm sitting on guru half day trolling

Where do i send the cookie? Although considering the Risens have Strip Enchantments and without Prot a squishy is a corpse, i'm not entirely sure i should believe you for 1 second.

Nereyda Shoaal · Jul 08, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

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Originally Posted by Kendel

Where do i send the cookie? Although considering the Risens have Strip Enchantments and without Prot a squishy is a corpse, i'm not entirely sure i should believe you for 1 second.

Summons, pulling, running back and forward, kiting, dodging.. you name it
Best PUG memories I ever had

For the cookie...
<- IGN

Kendel · Jul 08, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

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Originally Posted by Nereida Shoal

Summons, pulling, running back and forward, kiting, dodging.. you name it
Best PUG memories I ever had

For the cookie...
<- IGN

Yeah thats really not an explanation. And firing off some degen or something and pulling a runner is hardly 'leet monking'. Given an hour or 2 i'm sure i could solo all of HP by attacking and running away with or without a monk.